In two previous posts I have published the death certificates of my 2 grandmothers, 4 great-grandmothers, and 4 of my 8 great-great-grandmothers. The 4 I did not have included two from Budesheim, Germany, and two from Alsace, which are now French records.
Thanks to Cathy Meder-Dempsey who writes the blog Opening Doors in Brick Walls I now have the death certificates of the two Alsatian great-greats.
When you enter the French archives you apparently have to agree not to publish the results online. I only know that because Cathy pointed it out to me. So I will post links and translations instead.
Madeline Groll was born 24 May 1816 in Muespach, Haut-Rhin, Alsace. But was that France or Germany in 1816?
If you don’t know this, Alsace has been a pawn between France and Germany for a long time. According to Wikipedia here is a more “recent” timeline of who controlled Alsace when. The languages spoken are in the far right column.
1618–1674 Louis XIII annexes portions of Alsace during the Thirty Years’ War Holy Roman Empire German; Alamannic and Franconian dialects (Alsatian) 1674–1871 Louis XIV annexes the rest of Alsace during the Franco-Dutch War, establishing full French sovereignty over the region Kingdom of France French
(Alsatian and German tolerated)[citation needed]1871–1918 Franco-Prussian War causes French cession of Alsace to German Empire German Empire German; Alsatian, French 1919–1940 Treaty of Versailles causes German cession of Alsace to France France French; Alsatian, French, German 1940–1944 Nazi Germany conquers Alsace, establishing Gau Baden-Elsaß Nazi Germany German; Alsatian, French, German 1945–present French control France French; French and Alsatian German (declining minority language)
According to this table, 1816 found Alsace part of France, but Wikipedia gives more specific information for that time period:
In response to the “hundred day” restoration of Napoleon I of France in 1815, Alsace along with other frontier provinces of France was occupied by foreign forces from 1815 to 1818, including over 280,000 soldiers and 90,000 horses in Bas-Rhin alone. This had grave effects on trade and the economy of the region since former overland trade routes were switched to newly opened Mediterranean and Atlantic seaports.
Madeline passed away on 31 July 1847 in the same town at the age of 31. Although I have not done much research at this point on her life, she had at least one child before she died–my great-grandfather.
This appears to be a gorgeous old primary school in Muespach.
Here is the link to her death record:
According to Cathy, the death record “starts out with the date and mayor, followed by the names of the two persons who are the informants. Lists her parents, father deceased and mother still living, and her husband. Place of death. Followed by fact that the first informant was her husband and the second her brother. It is in French.”
Madeline’s father was Ignac Groll, deceased. Her mother was Margarithe Simon, and she was still alive. What is odd is that the date I show for Ignac’s death (possibly given to me by a genealogist years ago) is 29 July 1815, which is more than nine months before Madeline’s birth in May 1816! Maybe an error on Ignac’s death date. She was married to Antoine Scholler. I show his death date was 1839, so if he was an informant about her death in 1847, again, the male’s death date is wrong. I can see what I am going to be researching when the women are done!
My other 2x great-grandmother from Alsace was Anne Riehr (sometimes Reihr), born about 1816 in Luemschwiller, Haut-Rhin, Alsace. Although born in Luemschwiller, she married a man from Steinbrunn-le-Bas, Haut Rhin, Alsace, and had her children there. The above photo is from Wikipedia of the town hall at Steinbrunn-le-bas. MAIRIE means TOWN HALL in French. I wish I knew when the building was constructed.
Here is the link to Anne’s death record (it actually begins at the bottom of the page before this):
And here is the translation from Cathy of that record:
Here is the 1866 death record and translation. The record begins on the bottom of the previous page. In the margin of the record is No. 3 Riehr Anne died the 19 January.
In the year 1866, the 19 January at 2 o’clock in the afternoon, in front of us Grienenberger Nicolas, mayor, officer of the (état civil) civil records of the commune (Niedersteinbrunn) Steinbrunn le Bas canton of Landser, arrondissement of Mulhouse in the department of Haut Rhin appeared Schirmer Antoine, farmer, age 53 years, husband of the deceased, and Betterlin Antoine, farmer, age 46 years, neighbor of the deceased, the two are residents in this commune, have declared that today at 10 o’clock in the morning, has died in this commune, Anne Riehr, without a profession, aged 50 years, native of Luemschwiller resident in the present commune, wife of the first registrant and daughter of Jean Thiebaut Riehr, farmer, age 84 years, resident of Luemschwiller et his wife Françoise Sutter, deceased in Luemschwiller. After being transported to the deceased to assure us of her death, we drew up the present record that the registrants signed with us after the reading and interpretation.
Anne was 50 years old when she passed away.
Now that Cathy has given me a tutorial on working with French records I will work my way through the other records in the lives of these women, their husbands, parents, and children. But don’t hold your breath. I find the handwriting coupled with the French very daunting.
What I do love about European records like the French and Dutch is that they are very thorough, and the records are very accessible online. Also, the fact that the women are recorded under their maiden names feels like a miracle in comparison with searching for American women through their married names.
Now for the German 2x greats. Yikes. They might have to be searched through the on site (as opposed to online) church records. Heaven help me. I don’t foresee a trip to Budesheim, Germany, in my near future. Any ideas?
How wonderful Cathy was able to help you with your research. The records you have found are amazing. You know I love the pictures 🙂 Madeline died so young. I wonder if you can discover why and if your great grandfather had any siblings. Wishing you ancestry good luck…great post Luanne!
Thanks, Sharon! My only “regret” about the older records is that they don’t show cause of death. SO ANNOYING. I truly wonder how anyone can find how an ancestor that far back in another country died unless they discover some unique source, like another type of written record. Cathy is amazing!!!!!!!!!
It was so much fun to work with you. You learned so quickly. Thanks for the mention. I might be able to help with Büdesheim as well if you can confirm it is in the Bitburg-Prüm area.
Cathy, thank you SO much for all your help. I appreciate it so much.
I saw that there is a Budesheim in that district, but I can’t figure out how to tell for sure what district my Budesheim is in. I know it is close to Bingen, near the Rhine.
Büdesheim is actually a part of the city of Bingen on the Rhine. So if you are sure your Büdesheim is close to Bingen then it is in the Mainz-Bingen district in Rhineland-Palatinate, Germany.
You’re welcome, Luanne.
Yes, I am sure it is there. My impression gathered over years is that it was it’s own village when my ancestors left there in the 19th century, and then it became part of Bingen as Bingen grew. In fact, I always heard they were from “Bingen,” when I was a kid, only discovering later it was actually Budesheim. My great-grandmother’s family had vineyards and owned two houses, although they were not wealthy people.
Boy! I know what you mean about German records. My mum’s Porstmann family came to America from Mulhausen, Germany. After two major wars, there’s not much left to find. I know who John Gottleib’s parents were, as well as the names of his siblings, but finding actual proof, beyond family lore, is just short of impossible.
I wish the German records were all online together like the Dutch and French! So your Mulhausen is German? There is one in Alsace, too! It gets pretty confusing! Good luck to you. Maybe something will turn up?
What wonderful finds! Good luck with the French translations. I wish I could help you in Germany (literally). I’d love to go and find more of my roots there.
Oh, that would be so nice if you could help me and your own research!!!
As soon as I learn German, you got it!!
LOL! Would you believe I actually took a mail order course in German during grad school and got an A in it? HAHAHAH, I could read and write at the time of the course, but retained nothing except a healthy respect for words of 30 syllables.
30 syllables?!!!😂
Hahaha. I found this article about “ridiculously long” German words. So funny. http://theweek.com/articles/463500/8-favorite-ridiculously-long-german-words
I don’t believe a single one of them would ever go tripping off THIS tongue!
Well, well, well, you have such a diverse heritage! I envy the maiden names. Sadly, in England as well as USA (and probably anywhere influenced by English rule) there are so many records of mothers whose maiden name is not recorded and may never be known.
Andrew
Oh, I’m sorry to hear that the English do it like the U.S.–with married names. That makes things so very difficult. I feel so lucky that the Dutch and French records identify women by their names at birth.
Worse still, when you get back to the 1600s some baptisms record only the father’s name. Rare unmarried mothers are gold dust!
Awful. So the woman had the baby and she isn’t even mentioned? Yikes.
I guess there are two reasons:-
1. Primogeniture – the idea that the eldest son inherits all, therefore the female, or distaff, side was unrecognised in terms of wealth and power, and, anyway, was not allowed to hold property in their own right once married. There was also payment of a dowry in more affluent circles – essentially someone on the up buying into a higher status family.
2. The mother died in, or soon after, childbirth, which was far more frequent than today, so it was left to the father. The father would then seek a new wife with some urgency. As there were many more fatalities at work, there would often be a widow available, perhaps with children of her own seeking a breadwinner.
Different times, thank goodness.
I don’t know if this TV show was available to you, but the BBC did a series “Back in Time for Tea” and an earlier one “Back in Time for Dinner”. Each featured a family whose house was converted to what it would be like before World War I and then successive decades looking at personal roles (there was even a domestic servant in one), diet, incomes, strikes, and the equipment available to, in particular, mother (and to some degree older daughters) to put a good meal on the table. One thing I took from this was that mother was quite isolated, stuck at home doing the cooking, washing, and so on. I think my mom was like that, especially when I, and then my sister, started school. That was until she got a part time job, when she became much happier and more positive generally. We often forget that things like the washing machine that you just load with a soap capsule and clothes, hit the start button and do something more enjoyable while you wait for the beeps when it’s finished is a very recent innovation. When I was kid washing clothes and bed linen was hard work – I would be roped in to work the mangle!
MIddle class Americans probably had more labour-saving devices earlier than Britain as austerity in the post-war era hit harder over here, but the general experience of women must have been similar.
Best wishes
Andrew
That does sound right, but still awful. As you say, “different times, thank goodness”!
That TV show sounds great. I’d love to watch it. Our next door neighbor had the mangle, and she used to babysit me, so I saw it used plenty of times, but luckily my mother didn’t have to deal with that. She was older than my mother by almost a generation. Can’t remember about my grandmother . . . .
What a wonderful find! It’s amazing how the various pieces of the genealogy jig-saw puzzle come together.
Eventually many pieces are accumulated. Knowing that makes it easier to wait for some!!!